Inner Harbor Streets To Be Restored

The skyway strikes again!

Great idea and yet again the skyway cheapens the project. Why are we still talking about keeping the skyway and elevated portion of Route 5?

its nice to see (if the plan above is accurate) that the enormous radius for what looked like 18 wheelers as shown on the canalside plan is not getting built. also, will they replace the white stampled "cobble" concrete with actual cobbles on the central wharf as originally proposed?

a waste of stimulus funds.

No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!
No granite curbing!

It really should be Medina Sandstone curbing!!!!!!!

Chris...

Out of curiosity, why the medina sandstone curbing? Is that more historically significant? I don't like the granite curbing too much and think it unnecessarily raises the cost for street and sidewalk construction, but am curious as to your want for medina sandstone.

Historically, Medina Sandstone curbing was used in Buffalo and only very few other places. It is unique to Buffalo, it is authentic, in my mind it "says" Buffalo. Granite curbing was not used much here, if at all, until relatively recently.

I don't know which is more expensive or how easily available the sandstone is, but apparently generic building codes call for granite or concrete because no one outside of BUffalo knows about Medina Sandstone.

Most people think that the sandstone is not as hard as granite but I recall a few years ago that the Preservation Coalition campaigned successfully to have Medina Sandstone added to the list of approved materials by pointing out that it actually has the same relative hardness as granite.

When people think that it doesn't last, they are basing their opinion on comparison of 100-150 year old sandstone curbing with relatively recent 10-30 year old granite curbing.

Today I drove down Michigan Street and several blocks worth of Buffalo sandstone curbing have been ripped out and are being replaced with beautiful New England granite.

It's possible that some streets may not have had any curbs at all, or the curbs may have been made of the same material as the street - brick or cobbles, the cobbles could be either sandstone or granite cobbles, but I don't think cut granite curbing was ever used.

Check out the one street that has already been rebuilt, it runs between the two Naval Park buildings - it is built with sandstone cobbles laid between cut granite curbing - I have to cover my eyes when I walk by it.

You can tell I've got a bug about this, can't you?

In any case, portions of some of these streets still survive a foot or so below ground level. I walked around there before they covered them back up. I can't remember whether they had curbs or not or what they were made of but I can guarantee that they were not made of cut granite.

If granite is going to be used, lets please not call it a restoration!

And another thing while I'm ranting, they are historic streets, not historical streets!

Are these all the streets that originally existed in that space or are streets missing to accommodate the BassPro megamall?

Can the image above be enlarged? It would help to get a better sense of what is planned.

I remember Congressman Higgins' website including a statement that encouraged removal of the skyway. Well, it seems that is no longer the case. (Maybe I'm just behind the curve.) His website now includes the statement below -- a policy reversal if ever there was one:

'Brian's efforts with regard to the Buffalo Skyway are not so much an attempt to tear something down as an attempt to build something up – an attempt to make the physical improvements necessary to pave the way for access and development at Buffalo’s Outer Harbor.'

http://higgins.house.gov/ontheissues.shtml

Since he's trying to build something up (for his suburban constituents, obviously), it's only fair that the skyway be renamed after his efforts. Higgins' Rainbow, anyone?

I think the granite and cobbles will look great. Whether or not the granite is historical can easily be defunct as myth. Look at many of the neighborhood streets that haven't seen large updates in 80 years. They all have what looks like Medina Sandstone curbs. I grew on streets with those redish and beautiful but badly falling apart curbs.

They might not be able to take the beating of modern vehicles. Either granite or Medina sandstone are hands down better materials than the standard Concrete you see around the suburbs and some areas of the city. They are always falling apart and chipping mere months after construction.

I am thankful at least when it comes to curbing the city thinks about long term longevity over short term costs. I am not sure if Medina Sandstone would be economically feasible. I assume that most quarries have been shut down \ filled in for generations since our region has long given up its own regional materials for the cheaper homogeneous crap the country as whole uses.

The post is not correct. The historic streets, as proposed here, are not being restored fully as the Erie Canal Harbor Master Plan (2004) directs. The reconstruction plans should be changed so they comply with the law and the established community vision for fully restoring the Canal District street network.

Actually, the skyway was built by the French prior to the construction of the Erie Canal. We are OK to leave it standing.

If the city was really interested in longevity over short term costs, they'd be paving streets (at least the side streets) in brick. But unfortunately, bricks tend to slow down traffic. Also, storm water doesn't run off them into the sewer system so readily.

I don't know anything about the availability of Medina Sandstone but I do remember hearing that a quarry was reopened to provide the material for rebuilding the Connecticut Street Armory. If there was a demand for it, I would think that someone would be willing to supply it.

I loves me some good ol' fashioned pork.

I think a significant point in this announcement has been missed. These streets were supposed to have been done several years ago, and were the responsibility of the city to do (fed $$$ on the canal etc, the city's part was the streets). They punted, failed to follow through, delayed, and now we have stimulous money for a project that was supposed to happen anyway. This isn't news. Unless the news story is "City gets out of funding obligation, Higgins bails out Brown."

wait...we are getting uptight about stimulus money being used for this why!??!?!

the country can afford to drop a few more dollars than the city...so i welcome the help!

Am I the only one in Buffalo who actually likes the skyway...?

:s

BUFFALO RISING: DO YOU KNOW NORPARK AND SCOTT NORWOOD?

Ha! For a cobblestone street "experience" just drive down any residential side street - with the bumpy ride from all the pot holes you feel like a stage coach racing down the inner harbor streets circa 1845.

It is great that money is being "invested" in the inner harbor but what about investment in infrastructure (i.e. road, curbs and sidewalks) that are actually used by people?

I just spent the last hour or so wandering around down there and the Skyway makes that area very inhospitable with all the traffic noise. I think it's inevitable that it will come down sooner or later (as well as the elevated section of the 190) but I can't see ANY business, including Basspro, locating down there now. It just isn't a very nice place for people.

On another note, I see that they have used a lot of new Medina Sandstone in great big smooth rectangular slabs so it must be still available.

Also, they've removed the wooden floors from the excavated basements and are apparently in the process of paving them over with concrete.

And, there is a new kiosk sign with three panels done by the National Park Service which I think does a very nice job of placing the whole site in context - it blows all the other interpretative signage away. It appears to have been done by professionals.

And the cut granite curbing still looks terrible next to the cobblestone street.

the sandstone won't bear the brunt of heavier vehicles like we have now and the money was slated for the canal project. Other streets need to get done, sure, but you can't use this money for the other areas.

i can't believe i just read like 20 comments about freakin medina sandstone. holy crap

Restoration of historic street design respects the human scale that worked for hundreds of years before cars came to dominate cities. Limited waterfront and downtown locations should be developed to make these areas attractive to pedestrians and small business. Neighborhoods and public spaces built this way are the most hospitable, successful and just plain pleasant places to be. Contrast Allentown, Elmwood or Isle View Park with standing under the skyway, in a mall parking lot or along Niagara Falls Blvd.

Good to see BRO back to its old inane self.

Let's just get rid of the cars and the roads. Turn the whole freaking city into one big park where the city residents can wander freely and reminisce about the companies that moved to the suburbs leaving the rest of the city vacant. I can just see them all stuck in their victim ways, saying that all they wanted were people to abandon their cars and their lifestyles to live the way the self-righteous new urbanists wished them to live. Why couldn't they just give up their safe neighborhoods and good schools and share in the poverty and crime like good citizens should. Why couldn't they just give a fair share of their money to the poor instead of moving away and taking their money with them. How could anyone have predicted that tearing out the roads and overtaxing people would possibly make people not want to live in the city? How could we have predicted that more companies would move to the suburbs or out of state when their executives decided to leave? It couldn't be our fault that they just didn't want to do what we told them to do and move into the city. They are just racists, elitists, and bigots because they don't see things the way that we see them. Stupid suburbanites in their big homes living in subsidized developments while the poor have to live off meager welfare benefits, minimum wage jobs, and subsidized housing. It just isn't fair and they shouldn't be able to get away with it. But oh well we sure showed them because our creative class is going to save us by turning the vacant office buildings into nuevo homeless shelters filled with beautiful graffiti and gritty sculptures. They also turned miles of vacant lots into mini farms and BMX parks to keep us all fed and entertained. See how much better life is without all the greedy rich elitists trying to keep us down.

Ah, won't that be the day!

You know what? The Skyway is Buffalo's verion of the Palast Der Republik in former East Berlin: it's huge, it's ugly, and when they finally knock it down, everyone will start missing it. Really, you know this will happen. So accordingly, I say knock the piece of s&#T down.

Well I agree with the Medina Sandstone being a standard for Buffalo. How can we make that happen?

Second, I think there should be a movement in Buffalos numerous historical districts to abandon their asphault side streets with brick and cobble stone.

Third, think for a minute...if the skyway wasnt there then we couldnt have the Erie Canal Wharf at all because there would be a huge 4 lane grade level expressway with a lift bridge thru the district. THE ERIE CANAL WHARF PRETTY MUCH LEAVE THE ONLY FUTURE OPTION FOR REPLACING THE SKYWAY AS A TUNNEL! FURTHER IT MAY BE THAT THE WHOLE ROUTE5, NIAGARA EXPRESSWAY, I-190 INTERCHANGE GETS MOVED UNDERGROUND INTO A BIG DIG PROJECT! YEAH!

Fourth, the bigger picture of the Erie Canal Wharf brings 3 things into focus: how does the DL&W get integrated? Can we rebuild the Passenger Concourse? What should happen with the Marina Towers? How should downtown and the waterfront office/condos get integrated.

FIFTH AND LAST WORD, BUFFALO HAD A BOARDWALK AND I THINK IT WAS CALLED FRONT STREET AND IT WOULD BE GREAT TO BRING THAT BOARDWALK BACK.

BUT WHAT IM SAYING IS THAT BUFFALO REALLY NEEDS TO MOVE TO PHASE2 OF ITS WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT PLAN AND EXPAND IT FROM LASALLE PARK TO MICHIGAN STREET TO NIAGARA STREET/SOUTH PARK!

I'm not sure about those granite curbs either. After about 150 years, they tend to get slippery.

Sandstone curbs...YES! I can't imagine the inner harbor being successful without them. If you polled 100 people after their visit and asked them about the curbs, 98 or 99 of them would have no friggin' idea what you were even talking about. So for the 1 or 2%(and this number is probably high) of visitors who feel they are being cheated by curbs that in their opinion are not historically correct, all work should stop and their ideas implemented?

Get real.

Dozens of comments about curbs.
Too many more about the Skyway.
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And no one has posted a link to a better image of the street plan at the top of the article. BRO, why can't you link your images to larger versions, especially since many maps, renderings and models are featured on this site? This is the internet not print.

ones the "historic" streets are back in action, what will they lead to? are we talking a draw of some sort or more unearthed foundations to admire?

Chris is right about the curbs. Disney pays a LOT of attention to tiny details like these and they laugh all the way to the bank.

I am not saying we need a Disneyland-on-the-Erie, I am saying that the Canal District will be yet another Buffalo embarrassment if it lacks paving materials, street furniture, street widths, and signage that are authentic to the canal period.

Well if your talking about bringing people to the waterfront then there is no doubt that the Light Rail extension to the airport needs to be the top priority.

Linking Lancaster, Airport, Galleria, Central Terminal, Broadway/Fillmore, Larkin District, Downtown and the Erie Canal Wharf District means is critical benefit for locals and visitors who would have the ability to stay downtown and patronize both downtown and the galleria.

For Buffalo, the Erie Canal is only one historical element that we need to capitalize on. Integral to Buffalo's cultural history are also LaSalles Griffon, War of 1812 (Battle of Lake Erie, Burning of Buffalo), and the Pan Am exhibit.

Its got to be a multi-faceted approach: Historical reconstruction and preservation, culturals, urban office parks, urban residential, mass transportation and mixed use downtown.

Keeping the skyway seals the deal that its replacement will be with a tunnel in the future....but how much does Buffalo really invest in its future? From the Mayors and County Executives office...it doesnt seem like there is any leadership at all!

I agree a tunnel is the way to go, perhaps starting near the Niagara Street exit and running out to the Outer Harbor. If other cities and regions can get these massive tunnel projects underway and constructed then Buffalo ought to as well.

Why is the skyway a problem?

Whatever>"Something that will very very very seldom happen is considered a "point"? That's an unusual interpretation of "important location in American history" also. I'm familiar with the canal and its impact, but it's not a compelling topic of wide interest. And for those few tourists who care about the Erie Canal, why not go to one of the many towns (Lockport and several others) where they can see and ride on the real deal? How many will want to look at where it used to be - with or without cobblestone?"

You are underestimating the impact of some low cost cultural tourisim. The fact that lockport and every other town is dressing up their canalfront is all the more reason to do ours. Although your opinion of the WNY and its role in American History is low it isnt fair to assume that the rest of the country feels this way. Ask any harbormaster between here and Albany how many people from all over the country take the masts off their boats and cruise through the canal between the Atlantic and Lake Erie. Why not give these people as well as others somthing to do while they are passing through Buffalo? The cobblestones, boardwalks, and slips are little details that make this historic point more authentic and interesting.


Whatever>"Maybe a lot of average people around here agree with me and that's why politicians aren't facing much pressure to "do something" about the Skyway."

If you base your thought process on what the majority of your peers think than I feel sorry for you.

pit>"All that would be left to do is watch the private sector build it up."
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I don't think the private sector is has a big interest in building it up. We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

pit>"Ask any harbormaster between here and Albany how many people from all over the country take the masts off their boats and cruise through the canal between the Atlantic and Lake Erie."
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That's what I was saying: the actual canal is still around for people interested in that. Far fewer will be interested in seeing where a section of the canal used to be a long time ago.

pit>"Why not give these people as well as others something to do while they are passing through Buffalo?"
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My take is there are things to do in Buffalo that for most of them will be much less boring than signs, walls, and cobblestone streets. A few are interested in those, no doubt. It sounds like you are. Tielman is. Donn Esmonde is. Probably some others too. It's just that I'd bet it's far fewer than the number of people who'd find the canal itself interesting. (And even that latter number isn't huge by tourism standards, but it's a respectable number.)

pit>"If you base your thought process on what the majority of your peers think than I feel sorry for you."

Reading comprehension. If you think that's what I said you didn't read it carefully. I said maybe they agree with me on this issue. Not that I set my opinion based on what they think. Obviously I'm often in the minority opinion in Buffalo.

Whatever>"That's what I was saying: the actual canal is still around for people interested in that. Far fewer will be interested in seeing where a section of the canal used to be a long time ago.

The original canal route has been changed in more places than just Buffalo. The "old canal" used to go around Lake Onieda and through Downtown Syracuse but the latest, 1920s version abandoned the canal and ran through the lake and up the Oswego River. Does this make the Central New York leg of the canal less authentic or interesting than the rest? No. People still come and marvel at both the historical aspect as well as take in the natural beauty in and around the canal system.

Again, if other upstate communities are taking advantage of showing off their stretch of the canal why wouldnt we do the same? You use data and links to back up your point on other topics and Im sure there is some data out there with regards to canal traffic and economic impact on local towns. Look it up if you dont believe me. Cobblestones and other tweaks just make the ECH more attractive and interesting to travlers. The old route has been altered but it is still possible to travle from NYC to Buffalo by water.

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Whatever>"My take is there are things to do in Buffalo that for most of them will be much less boring than signs, walls, and cobblestone streets. A few are interested in those, no doubt. It sounds like you are. Tielman is. Donn Esmonde is. Probably some others too. It's just that I'd bet it's far fewer than the number of people who'd find the canal itself interesting. (And even that latter number isn't huge by tourism standards, but it's a respectable number.)"

You are mixing up your opinion of canal history being "boring" with facts. You may not find nautical history and the canal system interesting and thats okay. However do you think someone who has invested in some cases over a million dollars into boating would find this all very interesting? I do and I dont even own a boat.
We are not talking about enough tourisim to make everybody in WNY rich. But why not take advantage and showcase what is already here to the rest of the world? A few bucks spent on cobblestone streets, signs and period replica buildings are low cost details that would take advantage of tourisim on the canal and the great lakes. Again its not huge but why pass it up?

ps: Syracuse has put up some signs, cobblestones, and restored canal era buildings in their canal neighborhood. All of the details of which makes for an interesting entertainment district and brings in more than a few interested tourists. This in spite of the fact that the old canal, save for a rewatered stretch in the public square has been removed from the city and replaced with Erie Blvd. They have done more with canal tourisim and they dont even have a waterfront anymore.
Makes me think canal attractions would be more interesting, profitable in Buffalo since it still sits on the route of the Barge Canal System with plenty of water.

pit>"Makes me think canal attractions would be more interesting, profitable in Buffalo since it still sits on the route of the Barge Canal System"

No, Buffalo doesn't still on the route of the Barge Canal System. That ended about 100 years ago. Now the Barge Canal System ends in Tonawanda.

I didn't say canal history isn't at all interesting. Not all interesting history makes for good tourist attractions at a spot where something historic used to be.

In Lockport, people interested in these things can see the actual canal, watch the huge locks work, take a boat ride through the locks... and, yes, also see some 100+ year-old stone walls up there too, and read signs about the canal's history, etc.

Buffalo's canal leftovers are some stone walls where the canal used to terminate, with some explanatory signs talking about the history of it. That's nice, but realitically it won't be interesting enough as an attraction to draw a lot of people. Neither will cobblestone streets, so the money spent on them could be put to much better use.

Lincoln visited Buffalo at least twice, once alive and once on his funeral train. While those may be interesting historical facts, the spots here where those visits happened won't draw a lot of tourists here either, so it's a good thing our politician aren't building cobblestone streets at those blocks of Buffalo.

The water is nice for about a third of the year (in good years), but the history aspects aren't a big deal in a tourism sense.

Barge Canal ends in Buffalo originaly at the Erie Basin. We have a lock in the Blackrock neighorhood. Dont believe me take the Ms Buffalo sometime.

Again, your low opinion of WNY getting mixed up with facts. Buffalo was the last stop on the barge canal before lake erie even after the 20s era widening. Not sure why you want to change history and leave that part out. The fact that lockport or medina or oswego have working locks with other tourist attractions only helps Buffalo, the barge canals focal point. If all canal towns, including Buffalo invest in their canal fronts than all of upstate has a better, statewide, multi-city tourist attraction. Yes they wont show in the winter months because the canal is drained but in the nice weather we have a cheap effective way of bringing in tourists. Spend some time in the Erie Basin Marina and talk with the people with out of state port of calls painted on the backs of their ships. Ask them how they got here and most will say the Erie Canal.

What you feel are "leftovers" others feel are a part of an important piece of us history. And why not unearth a few building foundations and cobblestone streets to give our guests somthing authentic to look at? These minor details are much cheaper and have a greater effect on our economy than a waterfront highway, a ghetto casino, or a wider transit rd.

This isnt out of the blue stuff. Cultural tourisim works everywhere including here.

Who said I have a low opinion of WNY? Also, my facts are correct.

pit>"Barge Canal ends in Buffalo originaly at the Erie Basin."

That's not true here in the real world in 2009.
For the past 100 years or so, the NY State Barge Canal System ends at the boundary between N. Tonawanda and the city of Tonawanda.

http://www.nycanal.com/history/eriecanaltimeline.html

"... Between 1905 and 1918, an entirely new enlarged Canal, the Barge Canal System, was created to accommodate the large barges. ... The engineers changed the Barge Canal's western and eastern terminus from Buffalo to Tonawanda and from Albany to Waterford. ..."

pit>"Buffalo was the last stop on the barge canal before lake erie even after the 20s era widening. "

That's wrong too. See above. 1905-1918 is all before the 1920's.

Satellite pic from Yahoo. They even label the canal.
http://tinyurl.com/erie-canal-western-terminus

And I never said cultural tourism is non existent. But that doesn't mean any and every effort for cultural tourism will succeed simply because some politicians and bureaucrats slap the label "cultural tourist attraction" on some pet project. In the long run, after the first year curiousity factor wears off, time will tell how many people come to see Buffalo's new cobblestone streets near the spot where the canal used to end about 100 years ago. Those millions of public dollars could be MUCH more smartly spent on things impacting more average Buffalonians.