High Speed Rail: We Want It!

hey thats my pic!

High Speed Rail could do something for this state that would be beyond anyone's dreams...the train system here is terrible... If you have ever traveled across the pond then you know exactly what we are missing. Why do we need to travel by air everywhere? Car? No!! Let us create a high speed rail system where we can get to NYC in 3-4 hours instead of 8-9 ...Rochester? 20-30 mins...Syracuse? ...It will change the economics in the state (well...I guess that is a bit exaggerated)...I only wish this didn't seem like such a pipedream

French TGV (high Speed Rail) Paris to Marseilles , 490 miles approx 3 hrs (includes stops).

The trouble is that there is very limited money available for this ($8 billion) with more than $150 billion in projects already proposed. The Washington-Boston corridor reaches many more voters than the upstate NY corridor, for example. There are many worthy high speed proposals. It's a crowded field. I wish us luck, but I'm not particularly hopeful. We should not be deflated if some other projects get funded and we don't.

Probably like the interstate system, there will be states which lead and states which lag. But if the feds get involved, more regional systems may well get built over the next several decades. We might not be first. But I'd settle for mid tier.

Our best hope is being connected to Toronto, not NY. We are a 'burb of Toronto if connected by high speed rail. That would draw households to live here and raise the tide of development. But in order to entice Canada to connect to us, the draw of a high speed continuation to NYC might be prerequisite.

We have to get one if California is getting one.

Seriously though, this is a good thing let's make it happen.

NYS could build a moderate HSR for much less than the cost of California's proposed system, as much of the right-of-way and infrastructure already exist.

The former New York Central mainline (the current Amtrak route) from NYC to Buffalo is a relatively flat, straight route, with few grade crossings. It was built as a 4 track raceway to compete in the lucrative NYC - Chicago market. After all, it was the Empire State Express on its way into Buffalo that managed to break the land speed record @ 112 mph in 1893. YES 1893!!!

Unfortunately, this once quadruple tracked ROW is down to just one track in places - creating cascading bottlenecks. Antiquated bridges, turnouts, and facilities slow trains along the route.

Simply restoring some track and station capacity and putting the system in good repair will quickly reduce transit times, and greatly improve reliability.

Additionally, higher speeds can be attained as Positive Train Control systems are implemented in NYS. PTC restricts movement of trains passed red signals, or exceeding posted speeds. In use for decades, PTC will make the system safer, but it is also a federal requirement for higher speed systems.

It is possible that a system in NYS with speeds of 110 mph west of Albany, and 125 mph south could be built in just a few years, with a relatively small investment.

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Also we should be aware of Canadian plans to invest in the TO-NF corridor. Planning should be beginning so we can tie into the system, and the nearest megalopolis.

By limiting station stops and using customs pre-screening, or putting customs services in the local stations (like airports), travel time and reliability can be greatly enhanced. Currently, the entire train is inspected at the border. One person could potentially hold up an entire trainload. I believe Amtrak/Via Rail schedule an hour @ the border.

Basically an individual who boards the train in Buffalo would then go through Canadian customs in Toronto, as opposed to the border. Or, in reverse, an individual could board in Hamilton, and detrain in Buffalo and go through US customs downtown.

Yeah a Buffalo to NYC is short sighted of the larger regional economics. Canada's largest and most economically active city is literally in our backyard. Connecting to in with a fast efficient form of transportation would mean that Buffalo (now a 20 minute commute) could easily be THE place to put US headquarters for Canadian companies. It would be the landing point. Plus culturally there is still a lot of connection between Buffalo and the Niagara Pennisula. We are all cut from the same cloth of war, food, water and history.

High Speed rail to NYC could do similar things for Buffalo but on a smaller scale. Syracuse and Albany would be the bigger winners. But having a quick and easy connection for all of upstate to the capital would allow us to go to and influence our government more than most people can do now.

al... that makes too much sense.. I therefore cannot happen. Just like shared border.

I personally would love to see this come to NY. I have never been to NYC, mainly due to the fact that I won't drive down there but high speed rail would be a whole other animal!

Drifter,

If you have the time, catch the train there, its a great ride. Otherwise, I would think you can get some cheap flights and there are hotel deals, as the current king of the obvious here, you really should visit NYC. There's no reason to do any driving.

+1 for Buf to Toronto.

@ TheREALsbrof

Just why can't the shared border happen now? From everything I have read, the reason why the share border option was not possible was due to the big bad Bush Administration.

President Obama has had no trouble finding his pen to change several of the Bush administrations policies.... So why can't this policy be reversed as well? Why is the WNY representation in DC not being vocal about this?

After all, there are already plans in place for the share border and the space is available. Where are all of the activists who were so focused on stopping the project back then...today?

As for the HS rail....it should be done. But the $8Billion is not going accomplish much. The reason is it is going to be divided amongst several projects instead of just one. In the end, this will make traditional rail better but will hardly come close to providing a NEW HS rail segment.

Why do we even have border check points that require all sorts of ID just to go into Canada. We keep talking about how we should adopt the progressive policies of Europe then why don't we discuss adopting open border policies like much of Europe has? Then people from NY could get to Toronto much easier.

Do you think that the oppressive immigration and customs system is really working? Maybe the problem with the shared border arrangement is that Americans are too paranoid and fearful of the rest of the world to allow for collaboration with our most cooperative neighbor.

What are you afraid of Nick?

High Speed Rail sounds exciting, but I don't see how this helps Buffalo.

To help Buffalo, we need people to travel to Buffalo, move to Buffalo, base their company in Buffalo.

High speed rail seems to allow people in WNY to travel "away" from Buffalo, while convenient does not help our economy.

Buffalo has a great airport, and wonderful roads leading to it. While the time to travel to Buffalo for business or pleasure would be cut down, I don't see how it creates more demand for Buffalo. Tax policy, business incentives, cultural attractions, would do more to create that demand.

I remember the promise if Light Rail in Buffalo. Has light rail helped or hurt Buffalo? Did more people come to downtown because of light rail?

I urge everyone to consider programs that entice people from Toronto, NYC and Washington to travel to Buffalo because it's a wonderful city. The pride we have transmitted about Buffalo's cultural institutions has driven people to visit and spend money.

We Can and need to drive people to move or start their business in Buffalo. Most business travel is worldwide, not to NYC. It's just as likely that a business man will travel to LA as to NYC. High speed rail is not going to help him get to LA.

Let's build on the strengths of our city. Build the healthcare industry. Exploit our highly educated workforce. Make Buffalo more attractive to do business.

Heather,

I don't want another country dictating our policy. This isn't about me being afraid of anything, its about soverignty and the rights to protect our borders. I'm open to free borders if we can openly go into Canada to enforce our laws, and I guess likewise they into our country.

Brett, more people travel than move somewhere. You're not going to entice everyone to move, but infrastructure is needed for commerce. Any connection we have to other places is sure to bolster our economy.

Not sure what sort of 'oppressive' customs system you deal with when going over the border, Heather. The experience I am usually met with isn't really that bad or much of a hassle. Certainly it was a bit quicker and easier years back, but it is certainly FAR from oppressive. As long as your not some shady character, and if you have the proper ID, its a pretty smooth crossing. I can only imagine that you feel the security checkpoints one must go through when taking a flight is 'oppressive' to you as well.

I take the train whenever I have the opportunity, and since 2005 have worked with a number of rail advocates on our project to save the old subway tunnel in My Fair City. Based on that experience and those conversations, I'd have to say that Bini & Al Labruna have pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

Rail transportation at all levels upstate, from local to intercity to interstate, is just crying out for major upgrades and investment to make up for decades of neglect and disinvestment. But crawling comes before walking, and walking before running. Right now, with rail transportation for people, is seems we're just crawling -- and that's on a good day.

jolopy>"Or would you take a train and get here in less than 45min?"

Less than 45 minutes won't happen for Buf-Syr. Try about double that.

At 110 mph (which is what "High Speed" would be), that 150 mile trip would take over 80 minutes nonstop. Add in time for stops for Rochester and a few others and it'd be at least 1.5 hours between Buffalo and Syracuse.

Then once you get there, Buffalo or Syracuse, you wouldn't have a car to get around to where ever you're going there. Makes the 3 hour car drive sound better by comparison in most cases.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/02/what-the-stimul.html

"... Looking further ahead, the [stimulus bill] windfall will help finance "high speed rail corridors" capable of supporting trains traveling at speeds as great as 110 mph, ..."

A couple of things on this.

1.) We get pushed ahead as this is a sort of extension off an existing line as opposed to a whole new line. I think that helps us when we are compared to those on the east cost.

2.) Ohio, PA, and Ontario are designing a line that goes from Cincinnati to Toronto. Combine the two and that now makes Buffalo a transfer point which increases the economic benefits. Cities trying to access all these markets now choose Buffalo becuase we are in the middle. New York has a small part of this to design and should.

3.) There have been rumblings of MA extending the line from Albany to Boston. If this happens, it's now a regional line and connects NYC and Boston to Toronto.

These lines reduce airport congestion at some of the busiest airports in the world (Pearson, LaGuardia, JFK, Newark, and Boston's). It gives these cities alternative airports in bad weather, alternative airports for business people, and it opens up gate times for cities further away as there would no longer be a need for so many flights from upstate cities.

These lines would also open up cheaper places for those who work in the cities to live and gives WNY access to other job markets.

such a waste of a thread and discusion, we all know it will never happen. not being negative, just what is more than likely the truth.

Buffalo is a wonderful city and has many benefits with our without HSR.

Perhaps another way to look at it is "Does HSR differentiate Buffalo from other regions/cities"?

Well, if the only HSR rail line built in the US is from NYC to Toronto, via Buffalo, then I would say yes. I don' t think that's likely. What's more likely is that we will see many regions in the US with high speed rail, and on a faster pace. We don't even really have it with Acela!

What's also seems to be missing is that most companies are not headquartered in NYC. Companies are obviously headquartered all over the US, so building a HSR so CEOs from NY can move their operations to Buffalo to save money doesn't seem to make sense to me.

We need to create jobs that are "unique" to Buffalo. Having a call center for a bank maybe OK for a few years, until the whole operation is moved to India. Jobs need to be created that can not be done anywhere else than Buffalo.

Having our local politicians lobbying to get transportation funds takes time away from lobbying for funds to develop our local differentiators.

And IMO relying on geography has always hurt Buffalo. We relied on our proximity to the Great Lakes for distribution and manufacturing of grain, cars, and steel. Now all those industries are gone. Did the lake dry up? No, process and world transportation changed and we paid a terrible price.

When I look at Buffalo's developments in Healthcare I see an engine that will stay local if the people who do R&D stay local. We need to keep them here and loving Buffalo. We need them to ask their friends to move here. We need to incent new business to move here.

This is the type of development that will sustain Buffalo for the long term.

HSR is a distraction right now and should be put on the backburner.

Brett,

There is few inherent reasons that Buffalo can succeed over other places BESIDES geography. Developments in healthcare, I can get to 10x the number of healthcare research facilites in Buffalo within one hour of my home in Philadelphia. By that right, how is Buffalo at all creating jobs that can only happen there? How is increased transportation availabilty not an incentive for new businesses to move to Buffalo? Will not people exchange ideas or sell their products elsewhere?

The fact that they happened does not mean that we need to be forever fearful of them happening again. Drug smugglers and terrorists are smarter than the government, how the heck do you think they continue to bring tons of drugs into the country. 9/11 was a result of our ignorant foreign policy and treating other countries as though they are our servants, kind of like what you would like us to do with Canada. You are fine with opening the border as long as they play by our rules, anything short of that they can go to hell.

We are a very isolated, lonely, and fearful society. We don't treat our people well and we don't treat our neighbors well. Why? Because we are selfish and self-centered. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want people to work with us, but we won't work with them. This is why we are losing prominence and power and why other countries are shutting us out of international conferences. We are a huge nation of bullies and snobs, and our immigration and customs policies are good example of this.

Buffalo once was a great and successful city of manufacturing, services and technology precisely because it was a transportation hub. Prior to Air, Buffalo was the Chicago, the Atlanta, the Dallas/FtWorth of the Great Lakes.

Buffalo could reconnect to Chicago/Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Toronto, Boston and NYC in rail as it does with air. We could then share technologies and symbiotic/sympathetic industries with those cities that we presently cant.

HOWEVER A 100MPH TRAIN IS NOT THE SOLUTION. YES ITS BETTER THAN OUT 50MPH PASSENGER RAIL BUT 100MPH IS NOT THE ANSWER. WE NEED 200-300-400MPH HIGH SPEED RAIL.

How do we do it? Well, one suggestion is to rename the Thruway Authority running between Buffalo and Albany to the Empire Transportation Authority. The current Thruway Authority is already responsible for the Thruway and the Erie Canal, then why not simply add High Speed Rail.

Think of it this way....Federal Stimulus was limited to start ready programs. Therefore Buffalo Light Rail and High Speed Passenger Rail were not considered because they were NOT shovel ready. Building even 1mile per year in Niagara Falls, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany (5 miles per year) would have qualified us for BILLIONS!

Similarly, even building 1 mile per year of Buffalos Light rail would have meant that in the last 30 years...we could have built both the Tonawanda and the Airport Corridors and be on the UB line.

Who is this Heather person? anyone know? She's wacked and kinda stupid.

It also comes down to productivity.... the 3-4 hours to fly to NY after all the security crap gives you and hour of boring can't do anything time. The 3 hours on rail could be done working, talking on the phone, on the internet.. all those things that business people don't ever have enough time to do which would make the transit a productive part of their day.

Then again I know people who drive 2 hours a day to work in NYC... a 3 hour train ride isn't that unreasonable for a businessperson to do a couple times a week.

@Sony

You said: "Your idea of a Buffalo to Toronto High speed rail corridor makes too much sense but here's the rub: since most of any such route would be provided by Canada, why would they agree to such a plan unless there was a route from Buffalo to NYC?"

As Really? eluded to, Ohio has already begun developing a network that would eventually reach TO via Erie & Buffalo. Additionally, Ontario is exploring a TO - NF high speed line. These entities are looking to invest their own dollars to get near our doorstep. We just need to coordinate, and perhaps share some costs.

There is no reason for people from NYC to come upstate( they hate it here and there are no business opportunities), maybe a few to Albany....it is a waste of tax payer money

As Assaroni says, you can get in your car and drive 70, maybe 80 mph without a high speed rail, There is no traffic from Buffalo to just outside of NYC!

Al lebruna: I agree with your advocacy above for better conventional rail in NYS. 110 mph west of Albany and 125 mph south of it would be a big improvement. Albany in 3 hours, NYC in 5? A lot more people would tolerate that. Get enough people and you can add a second train at a different time of day which further enhances the appeal. And it is eminently reasonable financially.

sony, I agree with you about NY being the most appealing draw to entice TO to connect to us for true high speed. If Cleveland somehow gets going first and that appeals to Canada and we're in the middle, that's good. But I think NY would be the draw if the travel time was right. A true high speed would get to NY in three hours. Add 40 minutes for TO except for the asterisk of customs, which is a big asterisk.

That one hour border inspection is a killer for commuting. You can't do a pre-board inspection because not everybody gets on in Buffalo or NF. Some people come from other stops. No commuter is going to board in Buffalo every day only to sit at the crossing for an hour before continuing to TO. I have a vague idea for a way to mitigate that wait.

If we have high speed through Buffalo, where do we cross to Canada? Has to be the existing rail corridor, doesn't it? The International Railway bridge is where trains go through now. Don't reinvent that wheel. But that bridge is fifty years older than the Peace Bridge. Replace it with a multi-track crossing compatible with high speed. Then, use the Ambassador bridge site for a rail yard transfer facility (for freight) and add customs offices and a commuter parking lot for passengers.

Commuters could be shuttled across the bridge to Canadian customs. With enhanced ID they could sail through customs, timing their trip so that they'd catch the train with, say, ten minutes to spare. If the train originates beyond Buffalo on its way to TO, it would be sitting at the border for 50 minutes getting inspected before you even get on board. You're drinking coffee on Grant Street while the train's already in Fort Erie. Finish your scone, get in your car, drive the five minutes to Ambassador, five more minutes to park, fifteen to catch the shuttle over to the other side. You're not sitting at the border for an hour. You're in customs for a few minutes.

If Canada gets serious about high speed rail, let's hope they continue it right to the border instead of stopping at NF. If they continue to Fort Erie, we don't even need high speed on this side to take advantage. We just need a well timed shuttle.

A lot of posts about something that will never happen. Funny stuff, though, especially those who said people from NYC would relocate to Buffalo. People are really desparate for something good to happen for Buffalo, I realize this, but atleast be realistic here.

This is the thing that I find absolutely ironic...about Buffalo. The city just doesnt have a sense of business acumen or civic spirit outside of maybe sports and festivals/garden walks.

The city should RALLY around things like LIGHT RAIL, HIGH SPEED RAIL, replacing the INTL RAILROAD BRIDGE, the OHIO BRIDGE, the MICHIGAN AVE BRIDGE, THE WHARF CANALS, THE PORT AUTHORITY, THE NIAGARA POWER AUTHORITY (keeping our power), the Freight Rail Yards, etc. These are million to billion dollar federal and state projects that could pump up our economy. Yet, even as Buffalo was built as an intermodal transhipment hub...the people living in the city...dont understand what the city is, what the city was and what the city could be...

If they did, then they would rally around projects that rebuild the city and its connections to other cities.

ilovepit - you have a lot of time on your hands, ugh?

Black Rock - Black Rock or however you want to spell it is the worst neighborhood in town! You have no stake in the game.

@Heather

Heather, do you have any idea how many people are stopped each year at one of the bridges from WNY -> Canada for either immigration issues or smuggling drugs? The fact is it goes on everywhere. And while the US is certainly not winning the 'war on drugs', I don't think it's of any use to lay down our guard and say, "you win". Yes, the US may have screwed up in many ways which led to the 9/11 attacks, but your theory is saying that just because it happened once doesn't mean another act of terrorism will happen again - stop living in fear. Here's a news flash. Alot of people hate this country and the people inside of it, for whatever reason. The fact is that when you have countries developing nuclear missles, leaders preached to wipe Israel off the map, and radicals killing themselves to destroy America, all while many of the leaders exporting goods to America are demagogues, simply asking, "what are you afraid of?" is naive. If there wasn't anything to fear or defend against, this country wouldnt spend the billions of dollars it does on defense every year. Please, don't act like the fact that thousands of people losing their lives in an act of terrorism was just a fluke, and that we should simply move on, it's rather insulting.

My husband and I went into Canada via the Peach Bridge as kids, with our kids and with our grandkids.
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We don't feel any need to go to that foreign country ever again.
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The terrorist attack of 9/11/01 took EVERYONE by surprise (as far as we know) so borders were not immediately and absolutely closed.
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Speaking only of two foreign countries, foreigners in Canada and this USA were lucky to be able to go back home after that terrorist attack. No one will be so lucky if there should be a next time.
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It's for pretty darn sure that if this N. American continent is hit again, ALL borders will be shut down immediately and indefinately for a very long time.
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We like Canada, but we don't forget it IS a foreign country. We don't love it, don't live it and don't want to be stuck in a foreign country in which we have no vested interests or livelihood.
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Besides that, the Peace Bridge, (the only bridge we used except for the time we had to detour to the Rainbow Bridge because the Peace Bridge was too backed up); the PB, which we crossed mostly only on weekends or hoildays, never used to get so backed up even just ten years ago.

Sony

Ontario is only going to connect to the Falls. While they may not post it, they want to connect the metro Toronto population to the Casinos. Which are set up right and put money back into Ontario. Nothing really in Ft. Erie by comparison.

Besides, a connection to NF US is good for Buffalo. The better NF does...the better WNY does. If you connect HS rail via the Falls, you are going to much more action from Higgins, Collins and Brown or whoever is holding those positions. The Falls is in another county and congressional district. Slaughter has much much more weight than Higgins.

Once Niagara Falls and Buffalo have it...Rochester will want some. So on down the line it will go.

Besides, having NF as the last stop as the tourism component to the bid from NYC and Ohio.

Am I right? Do some of you believe that there should be a high speed rail that goes, say, from NF-USA to NF-Canada?
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That will NEVER happen. Although most of us only know the Toronto end of Canada, Canada has depth going Northward where most Canadians want to remain a foreign country!
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I can see 300+ really rapid transit happening, and that would be due to the cost of private vehicles and fuel guaranteed to always be going up no matter what the energy sources, but, there will not be a rapid rail from the US into Canada or the reverse.
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Soon enough, there will be rapid transportation all over the place WITHIN the USA. There will also be much rapidity WITHIN Canada. But the two countries in North America will never allow an unfettered crossover connection. It will be necessary to get off at borders and then cross.
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Also, as the cost of energy goes up-up-up, the need to travel anywhere ON BUSINESS using ANY mode of physical transporation will go down-down-down. Conferencing online will be the norm across the planet. Heck. It already is...
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Tourism though, especially from one country to another, is a very different matter from people traveling on business matters.
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Anyone can be a difficult-to-keep-in-check tourist. So, no. Rapidly moving from this US into Canada won't happen.

^^^^^^^ WTF????????

BRO, I agree with NorPark's succinct sentiment.

This is yet another thread where common sense moderation could keep an interesting discussion on topic.

We need a 1 comment per thread by Crisa rule imposed on the new BRO system

The rail lines are already there. This seems like a reasonable proposal. While we are at it, let's connect down town to the airport. There are a billion RR tracks cutting through Cheektowaga to Buffalo. Can we borrow one of em' please?

Where is this "Canada" of which you all speak?

Hot girls...on skates.

ADMINISTRATION-Sorry, I will stop cross-topicing.
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Back on topic: Because already existing rail lines will be used for rapid lines, does anyone here know if the proposed
"slaughterhouse" will use the same existing rails for cattle cars, and, does anyone want that?

""slaughterhouse" will use the same existing rails for cattle cars, and, does anyone want that?"

um, what? first, cattle cars disappeared decades ago. if they did exist, they'd just use the track that are already there -

secondly, so? better than by truck.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it at this topic, but, the Central Terminal will have to be involved in the high speed rails...

It's interesting that comments online, though thoughtful and insightful about the future of true, continent-wide rapid transit aren't reaching far enough into the future.
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It is much easier to see the more distant future on a personal level by having lived a longer time in the past--or at least having paid attention to those who were much older.
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My grandmother, who died 40 years ago and who lived into her 80s, was born before the age of that newfangled gadget that was alleged to never take hold--the automobile--conceived in a time of limitless gasoline.
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What I am saying ties into this topic because I repeated that yes, rapid transit will hit 300+mph, but then I remembered my grandmother and the fact that once cars got to the tremendous speed of 30 (thirty)mph, she would no longer allow anyone to drive her anywhere; it hurt her ears too much and frightened her terribly.
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That part about her ears would be why speeds should stay below 100mph. Unless, (and this probably will happen); humanity evolves into being inner earless.
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Meanwhile, the private vehicles of the more distant future won't resemble cars of today in any way including cost, and, rapid transit will not only be across this N. America but will also include S. America.
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And for this immediate area of WNY, The Central Terminal will be the hub; or the ground-level equiv of "hub-and-spoke".