Quote of the Day: City Council Pushing Light Rail Extension

This would be a great way to get the funds for an expansion. in Buffalo. The North extension to UB is great but an airport extension I think would be better. Extend it along existing right of ways from downtown to the Galleria Mall; then past the Central Terminal and on to the Airport. Think of all the traffic this configuration would bring and could finally be the silver lining to bring the Central Terminal back to life.

The Common Council supporting the expansion of light-rail in Buffalo, say it ain't so! While it may not go anywhere due to the myopia of the NFTA, its great to finally see a group of legislators with a progressive mindset that realize change can happen in Buffalo. If only Lord Byron would join the push and show some leadership.

Yes! An extension to UB North Campus is the best way to fix the mistake of exiling 25,000 young people to the swamps of Amherst.

I think the short three mile stretch extension to the current system would be an easier and faster lift to both capitalize on our current investment in the rail as well as support and setup the infrastructure which will be needed for the UB 2020 plan to actually happen.

You can't grow north campus by 40% and ever hope to accommodate the overwhelming single occupancy vehicles that flood campus and the surrounding roadways today. Extending to north would allow UB to grow, that will be a longer more sustained stimulus than the Airport Extension.

Sure I wouldn't argue either... but if we had to do something now... we should support UB, capitalize on current investments and get the biggest bang for our buck. Extending to North would allow people in Amherst and Clarence to park and ride on north campus as well as provide a one seat, fast, clean and efficient ride all the way to downtown, cars, HSBC and everything in between.

The north campus extension would be a better bang for our buck than trying to get the airport extension right now. There are two reasons for this in my opinion.

It would already capitalize on existing infrastructure, and require only three miles of track and a station or two. It would provide the infrastructure needed for the UB 2020 plan to move forward. Without viable transportation options that are clean, efficient and safe UB can't grow. They can not physically support 40% growth without mass transit because the roads and lots are already to capacity... Adding more traffic would cripple that area. People need to have a better option to go between campuses.

It would also provide for a single seat ride, that would be faster and easier to go from downtown to our most affluent suburbs. People in Amherst and Clarence could park and ride on North campus and take the train all the way to their offices or events. No transfers, no worries about south campus and the university heights. It is a huge population center... much larger than Cheektowaga and the Galleria area.

If you wanted to stimulate the WNY economy, than connecting north campus, the 10+ thousand students that live on and around the campus to downtown would be a huge shot in the arm. It would also allow UB to grow, which would be a greater, more sustained stimulus than the airport extension.

I mean I wouldn't argue against one in spite of the other. I think in the long term we need both, but to start we should finish the line we started 30 years ago. Once UB is connected, let the growing university and region create the support and impetuous to push for more.

sorry about that.... the site crashed and I wasn't able to tell if my post actually went through or not..

While I do agree that such a project is needed for our area, this comes across, to me at least, as political posturing. Stimulus funding is going to be awarded to projects that have already reached the implementation phase because the primary goal is to create jobs and increase demand for steel, etc. Expanding metro rail, at the earliest, is four years away. I think the reasons that Sbrof outlined clearly point to why this project is needed, but it should also be recognized that the funding request outlined by the mayor's office is very much in keeping with the goal of "ready to go" projects. Expanding the metro certainly does not fit in that category and really isn't eligible for such funding.

Would this make Metro Rail profitable or simply increase the burden on the NFTA?

The question is, how quickly can this bit of last-minute inspiration be translated into a shovel-ready proposal that can get funded given the timelines in the stimulus bill? This is precisely why regional transit planning should always be ongoing so when an opportunity arises, there is a plan and a schedule that's ready for funding. That said, the UB North extension is a no-brainer. The airport as well. A SouthTowns line would be awesome but a much harder sell for Congress. All of it in a package deal (around $2 billion?) could get funded but there's no time to waste...

The should name it: "The Metro Rail to Nowhere"

Metro Rail will never be profitable, infrastructure and transportation beyond freight rail is heavily subsidized on all accounts.

well public transit... like roads, highways and sewer systems are never profitable. They are services to the public. To think they should be is problematic and creates an unfair argument. I definitely think that if the metro rail went to North Campus it would probably be one of the highest used rail lines per mile in the country. It would play perfectly into the larger urban design and infrastructure needs of the region. So it would certainly have its place and serve and important function, but profitable isn't one of them.

Think about the security and weather aspects of such an expansion. When the October storm hit, the train and all its passengers had no problems getting to where they needed to go. Buses, cars, roads all were in disarray. To me, that day had to real difference than any other day. Expanding that kind of service and weather \ storm resilience to our region would again be in everyone's interests. hospitals, police, malls, education would all be available along a very secure and resistant form of transportation... not even including the environmental benefits.

I unfortunately will agree with bflobr though... our political and NFTA's inability to care about this project for decades has put us in a position where this isn't a ready to go project.

If we had the leadership we all wanted.. the plans would be ready and we could say.. ok, if funded we can start in a week. Unfortunately that isn't the case and therefore we will probably get skipped for transit funding... A real point to the inability for our NFTA and Leadership to take up a cause BEFORE it becomes politically beneficial to do so.

The federal stimulus money is supposed to be used for production-ready projects that generate immediate impact to the economy. I don't think WNY has many projects that fit that bill since most large infrastructure projects around here languish in the discussion-with-no-realistic-planning phase.

But on the other hand, the UB "extension" was originally supposed to be part of the Phase 1 metro buildout. It was cancelled for several reasons... but is it possible that the original studies and plans are still viable and just need to be updated? Could they start where they left-off back in the early 80's and go from there instead of starting from scratch?

one of the problems with the current system is a lack of economy of scale. every light rail system needs shops, yards, and equipment. however, our system doesnt get the full return on its capital investment. the addition of a few miles to connect to UB North will likely make it more efficient. and as Sbrof says, public transit is never meant to be profitable. of course, if it were, it would already have been done by the private sector.

I might go a step further and extend the southern end of the line to reach the growing Larkin district.

one thing to be aware of, is at no time has a UB extension been designed as a one seat ride. the UB extension was designed to meet the existing line at Hertel and Main. obviously this would be an obstacle to efficient utilization.

one sad truth is that after 30 years, their isnt a shovel ready plan to extend Metro rail. NFTA indifference? Ineptitude? passing the buck?

Unfortunately its not a ready-to-go project, but there's nothing a little political gamesmanship can't do. No, it wouldn't stimulate the economy in the short term, but the money could be set aside and used following the approvals. I know its not the intention of the bill, but WNY has lost too much on thoughts and good intentions. If the money could be earmarked utilizing Schumer and Higgins, why not?

it will never come to north campus because the rich people of amherst dont want black people from the city coming to the suburbs

al labruna, it was considered a one seat ride. If you look at the original plan in the central library you will see that the arrow "To North Campus" goes straight from the South Campus station to towards north campus. It is also why the tunnels extend past South Campus a couple hundred yards.

The tunnel that spurred off of LaSalle Station was a Tonawanda corridor spur that would go along existing Rail Lines into Tonawanda to North Tonawanda-ish. Not north campus...

Unfortunately the local rail advocacy group thinks that this is the most likely route to north which would require at least two transfers to get to south... something UB would never sign off on and only goes to muddy up the argument in my opinion.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=115736043256615441006.00044eb528193e33bf877&ll=42.928023,-78.806648&spn=0.193314,0.436707&z=12

Just what we don't need. An extension of an overly subsidized and underutilized public transportation system in a shrinking region. Ridiculous. That's the best idea these so-called leaders can come out with? Does anyone recognize that the first light rail has been a undeniable failure? Talk about short-sighted.

WOW. Just another in a long line of horrible ideas.

I have no worries though. This is Buffalo and the NMG, EVA, LWV and every other obstructionist organization will surely come front and center and do everything in their collective power to derail (pun intended) any light project.

This is one project that will never happen. The Skyway will come down, the state will abolish the Taylor and Wicks law, and we'll go to a more efficient, effective regional government before this happens.

A proper light rail and subway can do wonders for a city. It can increase investment, create jobs and draw industry and residents. I'm just not sure that Buffalo needs this direct investment right now for light rail. Buffalo needs a long term solution to the light rail and this is more piece meal.
Its taken Los Angles years to come up with a good plan for its subway after years of putting it together line by line. Comprehensive big plans are much better and the payoff is greater.

This is an easy win for the common council, even if nothing is ever done. The common council seeks funding, if it doesn't happen then they will tell us that they tried. If they do get funding, but the neighbors around the tracks fight it, then they will tell us that they tried. If it actually happens, then they look like they have finally solved a common complaint for the area. Truth be told, they are using this as a distraction from more critical needs for the area. I see this as a way for the council to avoid the more significant issues and to come out looking good without actually having to do anything. I liken it to the beauty pageant contestant who claims that if she wins she will focus on solving world hunger and bring peace to the world. Nice words but that is the extent of it.

sbrof,

I havent seen a proposal that actually connected @ UB south. Do you have any info you can pass on? Or was it more of a "hopefully someday" kinda thing without engineering or even a proposed right of way?

Anyway, a few people might interested in the facebook page "NY for High Speed Rail" http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=41825689063

The Associated Press reported today:

WASHINGTON – Senate Republicans on Tuesday blocked Democrats from adding $25 billion for highways, mass transit, and water projects to President Barack Obama's economic recovery program.

true, but it still departed from South Campus (not hertel which was my point) according to the original plan downtown. I have never actually seen an alignment between the campuses from that time period.

I have seen images on original north campus construction drawings coming in from the west. But from the west was assumed as you said somewhere around the Boulvard area... not miles away to the Tonawanda corridor.

I agree that any route to North could and should provide access to the mall \ blvd area but the main goal should be to create a strong connection to north campus... If going to the mall means that service is disrupted to the point it isn't competitive, funcational or forces a transfer then it probably shouldn't be pursued compared to a direct extension of the subway. IMO

al, I don't have anything online. If I can get back to downtown I will try and scan in the plan that shows the extension from the 70's plan.

It is in the Buffalo and local section. Not to difficult to find if you happen to be down that way. It has a Big arrow that crosses over the Main \ Bailey intersection that says to North Campus (maybe it says Amherst Campus)

I don't think the details of route \ ROW were ever worked out in detail. At least none that I have seen. I know that arrow and I know about the arrow coming onto North Capus from the west... what happened between, as far as I know, was never nailed down. thestip seems to know more about those details than I.

not the most official of sources, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Light_Rail_systems_by_ridership

click twice on "ridership per mile"

Sounds nice but will not happen anytime soon.

Paul, those cities are tops on overall ridership, Buffalo is third on ridership/mile behind the Boston "T" Green Line and Houston's system. NYC is applicable because it is a heavy rail system.

Sorry, NYC is not applicable because it is a heavy rail system.

It seems that the logical and politically feasible route will be to head north on Bailey. The train could go over or under the 290/990 somewhere north of Maple.

The technology has really improved since the 80s. The recent San Diego light rail extension has some street level, some elevated sections, and a tunnel was burrowed under the campus of San Diego State.

There has been talk of making Bailey one way between Sheridan and Maple. The other lane could be for the train.

This might also provide some redevelopment opportunities for the under-utilized retail areas along Bailey and at Bailey and Sheridan.

Nice to hear the system may be expanded. Seems to me this project should be shovel ready as it was never completed, plans have been in place and had funding not run dry the project to UB north would have gone on. Also, might as well attempt to get the funds to remove the skyway, construct a tunnel under the Buffalo River as a vehicular, bike/ ped, and light rail corridor to the outer harbor sheltered from the elements. NO excuses not to try.

I am not sure if this would be a project for the stimulus package of funding. Per the terms of the stimulus package Projects need to be under construction in 180 days. I am not sure if the environmentals have been conducted for this expansion. There is probably land acquisition involved. The more I think about it I would bet money that this project is not eligible due to the timing constraints.

The idea of the stimulus package is to get projects going ASAP as to put money into the hands of employees, construction workers, etc...This is a great idea..just not within the parameters of the stimulus package and I am surprised the Common Council does not know that. The NFTA moves slower than ice on a February day. Nice project but as far as stimulus package funding it....I am afraid that train has left the station.

Time to go after skyway removal funding as well. Construct a tunnel under the Buffalo River and extend the metro line, Route 5, and a multi-use path under the Buffalo River. Considering the tunneling that has been done in NYC, Baltimore, Chesapeake Bay area, etc. a tunnel under the Buffalo River to the outer harbor is chump change. I like the idea of extending the metro, just hope in both directions at minimum. Nows the time to get these "pie in the sky" plans done for everyone to enjoy and benefit from going forward.

We would be better off using the money to enhance the Amtrak system to Toronto. I don't mean to be cynical but we don't have the air quality or grid-lock issues that would warrant this kind of investment. If it is a matter of creating jobs, use the monies to improve our sewer collecton system that is leaking like a sieve and polluting our greatest natural resource, Lake Erie.

The light rail extension will never happen and would inevitably cost 5 times what any projections have ever been.

Why not spend the money, if any actually ever materializes, on projects that can immediately happen and actually improve the core infrastructure. Let's rebuild the aging water, sewer, and road infrastructure. Let's pave roads with materials that last, not crappy patches. Rebuild Fillmore Avenue. Upgrade the Transit/Genesee/Pleasantview interchanges with concrete and more turn lanes like Main & Transit (oops, that's in the burbs). There must be 10's of bridges that need repair in Erie County. Remove un-needed traffic lights.

Enough of the pie-in-the-sky projects. Focus on improving the core. Every new construction project means a permanent increase in maintenance costs which have to be paid for by our taxes.

Why enough of the "pie in the sky." So much status quo, why not build the infrastructure, encourage people to not drive, thus limiting the need to increase parking in downtown. Why is having a comprehensive transit system pie in the sky?

Not everyone likes things the way they are.

It's about time we expanded metrorail. And, can someone tell me why the NFTA hasn't been planning for this already?

Does anyone know the impact that the Sabres have on the metro ridership numbers? If the Sabres weren't in Buffalo, would the metro system be viable?

I think we should focus our pork barrel spending dollars on more meaningful projects. I know that we are in a hurry to get our "economic stimulus" handouts, but we should be at least a little bit rational about this. I mean, even the Congress decided to take out the money for new sod and sprinklers for the front lawns of the Capitol.

Would love to get a hold of some of those original plans. I never understood the need to go above the roadway. Today it would be easy to just dig the train out and let it run along the existing roads. Not the most efficient but a hell of a lot cheaper than elevating the thing above the road.

whoever thinks that the light rail isnt a shovel ready project is un-informed.

The tracks dont need to be laid to the Airport or to Niagara Falls because those tracks already exist. It would merely require CSX giving up the right of way...so the tracks could be electrified and the signals added for light rail. Its a longer route...but because it already exists...its cheaper per mile for the same unit of passenger traffic.

UB is more difficult...would it be underground? above ground? Its a shorter but more expensive build.

The southtowns had the least profitability...

And high speed rail...well thats going to require a coalition that includes ALL OF UPSTATE from Buffalo to Albany.

It is incredible that UB North and South are not yet connected by light rail. Lack of vision has denied generations of UB students easy access to the city. This has discouraged the type relationship that would benefit not just Buffalo but the students as well.

1. Federal $ shouldn't be spent on any construction pork projects for economic stimulus. 2. Public transit should be funded mostly by the fares of people who ride it. 3. When tax money is spent to subsidize public transit, that should use county or state taxes - not federal.

But despite 1-3, if federal stimulus construction $ must be spent in Buffalo, light rail would be a terrible idea. It's good to see at least a few very insightful comments above, especially these two

BacktoBuffalo>"...we don't have the air quality or grid-lock issues that would warrant this kind of investment. If it is a matter of creating jobs, use the monies to improve our sewer collection system that is leaking like a sieve..."

buffknut>"The light rail extension will never happen and would inevitably cost 5 times what any projections have ever been. Why not spend the money, if any actually ever materializes, on projects that can immediately happen and actually improve the core infrastructure. Let's rebuild the aging water, sewer, and road infrastructure. ... Enough of the pie-in-the-sky projects. Focus on improving the core. Every new construction project means a permanent increase in maintenance costs which have to be paid for by our taxes."

To balance out the bandwagon, people should re-read the common sense in full comments of BacktoBuffalo and buffknut. Those should be comments of the day.

Even in the category of public transit in Buffalo, light rail wouldn't be the smartest use of money. If spent instead on the bus system, it would bring more benefit, more often, to more average people across the city - many parts of it. Hybrid or natural gas fueled buses on improved and expanded routes would be more useful, and have greater future flexibility and lower maintenance cost. People who want to use public transit but refuse to ride buses should get over themselves. They're really not too good to be seen on a bus.

If federal stimulus construction $ is forced on this area, these would have much greater good than light rail, in order. All of them ought to be funded by state and local taxpayers, of course, but if the fed money is pushed here...

1. Sewer and water main repairs. The sewage flow into Lake Erie and Scajaquada Creek should stop, and we should never again hear how old and dangerous the local water mains are.
2. Expansion and repairs at the Holding Center downtown and county jail in Alden.
3. Make the I-190 safer - maybe remove some exits or something. It's always been danerous, and backups get even worse now after removal of toll booths.
4. Improved bus system.

buses are proven to have higher long term operating costs than light rail.

They also can not serve the kind of demands or ever be on schedule that light rail can. My Hertel bus has never once come on time... the train is almost never Not on time. If you want a good public transit system it needs to be rail.

Roads are not completely paid for by those who use them, never have been. Never will be. To think that light rail or public transit should is the wrong argument.

Buses also don't bring in new riders. Suburbanites will ride the train to work or a game. They don't and wont get on a bus to do the same thing. Hence by the East West routes have minuscule commuter ridership compared to the train.

"but if Hertel or any other route's buses are consistently late, the printed schedule is wrong and should be corrected." I guess they should just play the airline game and schedule 1 hour flights with a 2.5 window so that they arrive "on-time."

I don't know of anyone who claimed to be high and mighty for wanting a comprehensive transportation system. The fact is that commuters coming into the CBD from the suburbs would choose to utilize light rail over buses, and that light rail can transport more people using a multi-car transet than a single bus. The ability to attract riders who would normally used automobiles would be paramount in the decision to expand light rail. Buses do not attract new ridership. Also, the expansion of light rail would not reduce bus service within the city, but add demand and create new users.

http://www.vtpi.org/bus_rail.pdf

Light rail constantly has lower operating costs per mile than buses as well. Why does the NFTA use the light rail as an excuse... because the board is composed of a group of people... none of whom are planners or transportation engineers who might have actually had to research this stuff before and they only see numbers they want to see.

closing down the light rail who cripple the overall system. It is the backbone or fast transit and transfer all along main.

Also anyone who has taken the UB stampede buses realizes how ill failed buses actually are for serious transit needs. They all got stuck in the snow. They constantly wait for red lights and you are always waiting out in the cold for them. Something light rail could offer above buses.

You need to make the system more efficient and faster than driving alone if you want people to switch. Buses which are prone to the same pot holes, lights, traffic and weather as cars don't offer any extra service. Light rail could basically bypass all of these problems and in a region where snow and ice are prevalent wouldn't it make sense to invest in a system mostly ignorant of such factors?

Some numbers if you can fight their bad website. http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_lrt02.htm

Anyone read this story? It is a pretty interesting commentary on the politics that were involved in the original layout of the metro rail:

http://ribaulo.tripod.com/metro.html

I never thought that I would see this in my life time, but I really hope that we are successfull in doing this!

Citizens for Regional Transit has done a lot of research and preliminary plans for NFTA Metro Rail extensions.

NFTA Metro Rail Airport Corridor Presentation:
http://citizenstransit.org/airportcorr/aircorpres2004.pdf

NFTA Metro Rail Airport Corridor Map:
http://www.citizenstransit.org/airportcorr/airportcorridormap.pdf

As was commented earlier, the Airport Corridor uses existing rail right-of-ways for almost its entire distance, which makes it closer to "shovel ready" than other options.

I am writing because I feel that the NFTA has failed this region and I truly believe they (meaning the Board of Commissioners) actually enjoy keeping Buffalo down.
Why is it so difficult to expand our Metro Rail when the public is clamouring for it?
I have a fond historical interest in the transit system of old.
We used to have a transit system (almost a century ago) that was one of the most advanced and truly regional systems in the country.
The International Railway Corporation(IRC), had streetcar lines on all of Buffalo's major throughfares. Streets like Delaware, Elmwood,Main,Parkside,Kenmore, Vulcan, Fillmore, Hertel,South Park,Clinton, Seneca,Broadway,Niagara, etc. all had streetcar lines. Many of these streets still have the tracks under the coats of asphalt that have been layed over the years. Some streets like Fillmore, Bailey, South Park you can actually see them coming up through the roadbed.
The street I reside on, Virgil Avenue in North Buffalo was a connector line between the Hertel line and Kenmore lines. The tracks are still there, as any rainstorm always makes perfect outlines of the railbed.
We even had high speed trolleys which were part of an intercity service between Buffalo and Niagara Falls. These trolleys ran on the rail lines which the NFTA recently had ripped up behind the LaSalle Station. Apparently they gave up on the Tonawanda Corridor.
Does anyone realize that these trolleys actually spurred streetcar lines in Niagara Falls, including the world famous Gorge Line. Critical mass back then, who could have thought?
We even had lines that connected to Ontario to reach cities like Hamilton and Toronto. What an idea that would be today!
The IRC had lines which spurred as far east as Lancaster, even into the Southern suburbs.
The IRC was so involved in the community they actually had two streetcars special for funerals that would take the deceased to the Elmlawn Cemetery in Tonawanda.
The NYC Railroad and DL&W Railroads built commuter lines which circled the city limits. The NYC Belt Line is only used for freight anymore and the DL&W Belt Line is overgrown and only a pathway now, but it most of been something in the day. I've read it only cost 10 cents to ride the commuter line around the city!
If you have a keen eye for detail, when travelling down Elmwood Avenue going under the train viaduct you'll notice staircases which used to lead to the platforms for the commuter line. The basic foundations of some of these stations still exist while the home at the corner of Starin and Amherst setback is the only remaining station from the NYC Belt Line commuter service.
My point is this. Why could critical mass work back then, but the NFTA makes it sound as though we could never have such a wide spreading transit system. Hell I've joked with friends that the NFTA would probably love to off me with all of the old IRC maps I have in my possession. They just seem to enjoy a stranglehold on our area, which I'll never understand why?
They have stated that cars sharing rails with streetcars would be difficult for Buffalo, yet it works fine in Toronto. Correct me if I am wrong, but a city of over 3 million makes it work but rinky dink Buffalo at 290,000 couldn't make it work? Please.
Expand the Metro Rail, it's not rocket science. It'd bring you revenue, allow more ridership than your limited source now, create jobs.
Build an Airport Corridor line along with a connector line to Niagara Falls. The Niagara Falls line would be easy since the current rail line which goes from downtown Buffalo to Niagara Falls only sees 4 Amtrak trains a day.
We have to be the only community in the world that has a major world wonder in our backyard and doesn't exploit it for financial gain. Oh wait, Buffalo Niagara is home of NIMBY

So true, sad facts. The problem with the old trolley lines was the fact that they were all private corporations. Once the government stepped in to subsidize and build roads and highways the private industry collapsed.

When I see blind people, people in wheelchairs, and the others who all take the buses and trains it goes to the heart of the social problems we have. Cars are great... If you can afford them, If you can actually use them... for the rest of us we should just fend for ourselves.

Mass transit does something that roads cannot do... provide a truly democratic and open system for transit and commuting for EVERYONE. But wait I forgot... we don't care about democratic ideals... of a better society for everyone. Just our own personal commutes.

Oh Good. Hoyt is supporting this? I'm sure it will get done like all of those other projects he's worked on over the last 20 years like...?????. Oh never mind, I can't think of one. Maybe this will be the first. Let's hope.

Taxes, weather, snow, go bills, elmwood, allentown, over priced cheese, maybe next year, go sabers, miller sucks, millers great, fire ruff, weather, snow, what's it like out, don paul, kilgore, red coats, Elmwood Village is smarter than Allentown, shady, (heroin), taxes, politicians, byron, do nothing, blame higgins, weather, snow, pretentious Buffalo Only gourmet opinions, yuppies named after a banister, you do this he should do that, Hoyts great, republican bad, wben, wgr, news, weather, snow, taxes, jobs, more ****ty restaurants that think they arn't ****TY, weather, taxes, snow, elmwood, elmwood, allentown, hertel, paint this, make this building that, opinion opinion opinion, weather, opinion, **** OFF no one cares about the weather and the Buffalo Yacht Club isn't part of a typical Buffalonians daily life.

Sambo,

Im sure if you penned a submission on another topic it would be welcome.

Lets see it.

The trolly system worked way back when half a million people lived in the City and the suburbs had less population than the city. That is no longer true by a long shot. So saying that an expanded trolly system can work today because it worked 60 years ago is nonsense.

I'm one of those riders on the bus from the burbs to downtown a few days per week that apparently did not need a train to entice me to ride in. The packed bus of other burbites dismisses that argument.

Expanding metro rail at the ridiculous cost it would entail, which most-suredly would not ever come in on budget (have we learned nothing from the Big Dig fiasco?), is just wrong. But it doesn't really matter because it will never actually happen so go ahead and wish for it all you want and let me know in 10-20 years how it went.

Buffknut,

actually the streetcars worked in the city well before the city was @ 500k. more like 300. and there were streetcar lines on every major street.

in any case, most of the population left the eastside not along the route.

meanwhile, our government spends millions on things like the 400 extension to where? a much lower population density for a much greater cost.

i particularly like the "never happen" argument. cant win, dont try! that attitude is Buffalo's fatal flaw.

face facts about Buffalo. we dont need light rail to the airport, UB and Niagara Falls because we are a bustling metropolitan area.

We dont need to rebuild our freight rail lines because we are the captains of industry

We dont need high speed rail because we of ridership.

We need a metro rail expansion because a large part of Buffalo is as dirt poor as depression era appalachia. Buffalo has high ridership because we have a large population that cannot afford cars and they need public transportation for which light rail is both cheaper and safer.

We need to rebuild our freight rail lines because we remain a major conduit for east/west and north/south rail traffic. Rebuilding our freight rail lines increases the liklihood that our city can add value to the goods and services that transit our rail infrastructure.

We need high speed rail because we are in the middle of four major population centers: Chicago/Cleveland/Detroit, toronto/hamilton, Boston, NYC. Increasing high speed rail means increasing our cities economic multiplier.

Gosh...Buffalo was built as a transportation center...as transportation goes in Buffalo ... then so goes our economy

They just want to grab SOME STIMULI. The NFTA doesn't have the ridership to expand this dopey rail system. Just like they want to move the 190, are you kidding. Why not build a tunnel from Rt5 under the River and bam right up Michigan. Christ Obama is trowing money around we need to grab it some how. This is how.

I'll make this plain: if Buffalo has a future (if...), then it is in wind, water and light rail expansion. Everything else is the status quo. Maintaining the status quo would be tragic.

the ridership is there once UB north is added into the mix and even more so when UB grows by another 40%...

Have fun trying to drive anywhere near the mall and UB north if light rail isn't extended. Nothing like adding another 11K cars to an already stressed road network.

The airport would be nice and needed for social and commercial reasons but if you want to look at number look at the amount of transportation UB already has to do to move its students around. Tens of thousands of trips are already happening. You want a dedicated source of funding... bring UB into the student pass program. They alone would put enough people on the rail to keep it operating.

Another thing that would be nice to do, would be to sync the friggn street lights downtown, like Elm st. I feel like every single day on Broadway, i get stopped at a light, once it turns green, the light at the next block is turning red, so ass-backwards.

Mono means one and rail means rail....

The light rail has done a magnificient jobs revitaling Main Street, especially the urban core, if you don't believe it, just walk down the streets and look at all the retail and people.

We were on this story months ago at my paper:
http://buffaloruse.com/2008/12/efforts-to-return-cars-to-main-street-delay/

The extension to UB North would be more likely to create spinoff because of the type of residents it's connecting. Younger people today are more excited about the city than older people are. They are more likely to take the train downtown on a weekly basis for nightlife. And they are also more likely to use the rail connection to live downtown and commute back to campus. Students are more mobile since they're housing is only temporary anyway. Students are also more likely to not even have a car. It seems like a no-brainer.