Shocking Statistic of the Day
January 5, 2009 12:29 PM
Comments: 29
In case you missed it, the Seneca Gaming Corporation filed their 10K with the SEC on December 29th. In their filing, the Senecas revealed they generated $32,747,000 in 'net revenue' at the Buffalo Creek Casino for the 12 months ended Sept. 30, 2008. Now, the Senecas deduct the cost of 'promotional allowances' (complementary food, beverages, etc) from gross revenue to arrive at 'net revenue,' so the Buffalo Creek Casino actually generated more revenue than the $32.7 referenced above. But let's just call their revenues $32.7M for the sake of today's shocking statistic of the day.
Just two blocks away, in a little building called HSBC Arena, there's a team called the Buffalo Sabres. The Sabres play 41 home games a year and, according to recent reports, generate approximately $750,000 per game in ticket revenue. By doing some simple multiplication, we can determine that the Sabres generate $30,750,000 in annual ticket revenue.
Put another way - the Buffalo Creek Casino generates more revenue than Sabres regular season ticket sales.
When you look at the pictures of the two buildings, and consider the stature of the Sabres and the much-debated blue shed, it's hard to believe this shocking statistic of the day.
But it's true.
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January 5, 2009 12:42 PM
And...exactly how much have we given them? $0.00!!!!!! How much have we given the Bills and Sabres over the last 40 years? 10's of millions... Let's build the major casino here and quit f%$#ing around...this can be big for us!!!! I just dont undersdtand the moral crusaders here!!!! GET A CLUE BUFFALO
January 5, 2009 12:44 PM
Free 50/50 raffle ticket with every seat!
January 5, 2009 12:48 PM
That is a sic comparison of revenue generated. I wonder how much of the $30.7 million generated from the Sabres Organization returns into the local coffers via taxes and vendor expenditures. I would wager (though I am opposed to wagering) that the percentage of revenue returned to the State and local jurisdictions (via taxes, vendor sales, players purchasing homes in the area, etc..) of Sabres Revenue far exceeds the percentage of the Seneca revenue stream.
Likewise, I have never heard of anyone being addicted to the Sabres and loosing their second mortgage as a result of being a fan. Moral of the story is that there are options on how to spend State investments and incentives...put your money where it has the greatest return.
Go Sabres!!!
January 5, 2009 12:55 PM
as far as vendors, who do you think will pprovide food and beverage and all other services to the Casino? LOCAL VENDORS WILL! That is local money...get a clue...this would be HUUUGE for the city...make no mistake about it.
January 5, 2009 12:58 PM
@informedone...your reasoning makes no sense atall...Players purchasing homes??? 99% of Sabres rent places due to high turnover... All Bills live in OP and 98% of them rent homes...Vendors would make hundreds of millions from the Casino as would The Gas, Electric, and Water Utilities, a ton of the employees would move into the city to be closer to work and to meet the residency guidelines (50%0 city resident employees) etc etc etc... NO BRAINER
January 5, 2009 1:02 PM
Let me get this straight. The Casino has taken 32 million dollars from people living in Buffalo ('cause nobody is making the trip from out of town for this) and it is supposed to be a good thing? We're supposed to want it to EXPAND?
A Casino drains wealth--it never creates it. It doesn't have the capacity. The ONLY was a Casino MIGHT be good for the region is if it filled with gamblers from other places (and that market is saturated).
I will be in favor of a Casino provided an out of state ID is required for entry.
But I am definitely not in favor of a 32 million dollar drain, even if people are employed to take the money away.
January 5, 2009 1:06 PM
Drew, these people will spend it somewhere! They were already spending at Casino Niagara, Fort Erie Racetrack, and the new Fallsview! Cant you ppl see this?
January 5, 2009 1:18 PM
Every time the Sabres play a team (let's say Toronto for example) a plethora of fans come and stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants, by merchandise, patronize our bars, etc...). This in turn generates revenue both for the State and local establishments.
The Casino when (and probably not now) constructed would be a "self-contained" island not providing any revenue to hotels, restaurants and shops and tax revenue to the State.
So what if all the players are renting, their landlord still pays property taxes.People gambling at the Casino are the folks going "belly-up" and defaulting on their mortgages and forgetting to feed and cloth their children and it affects us all through poor credit markets, education challenges and urban blight!
January 5, 2009 1:31 PM
I swear these articles are only posted knowing they'll generate a tidal wave of responses. With that said....
Bottom line is that this is an entertainment business, just as the Sabres are. The $200 I MIGHT drop at the casino gives me the same entertainment value as a Sabres game (if not more so based on how they've played at home lately). At least the folks who are slinging food/beverages at the Casino can count on working a 40 hour work week, can't say the same if you are working at the Arena.
Perhaps the citizens should have pressed a little harder ~15 years ago when our politicians didn't feel citizens should have the right to vote on casino's run by the state. So don't blame the Indians for trying to capitalize on opportunities we let slip by!
January 5, 2009 1:31 PM
Honestly I could care less about the morality of it, if you choose to gamble so be it, not my right to tell you yes or no, but the economics of the deal cannot be overlooked. The problem is that the pro-casino people have a pov that is not oppositely countered by many anti-casino folk, namely economy and jobs vs. morality. If the anti-casino contingent focused more on the economic side, rather than the morality they could make a better case.
January 5, 2009 1:36 PM
Yeah the comparison that this is just another business doesn't fit. IF it was like the canadian model, where the government owns the Casino's and all revenues were put back into the community, then it would be a different story. That money could go into roads, services and the like.
People spending money at this place is akin to them spending money at Walmart. We would be luck if a dime per dollar is kept in the economy. The rest is sent as a check to the individuals on the Indian reservation. The difference between income and salaries \ expenses are huge... Yeah sure they spend a couple million on 'stuff' the other 30 vanishes from our local circulation.
As informed one said, at least with Sabres games, people do other things besises the game, it spreads the wealth and employs ancilary businesses (pearl st, wj morrissey's, cobblestone, Chippewa bars, hotels... etc etc)
I would be willing to put money down that not a single patron who went to the Casino went anywhere else downtown besides the Casino.
Go talk to the owner of WJ Morrissey's and see if he thinks the spin off is greater from the Arena or the Casino...
January 5, 2009 1:38 PM
and I don't blame the Indian's at all. The system is broken, they are just being good capitalists and taking advantage of it.
January 5, 2009 1:45 PM
Drew>"A Casino drains wealth--it never creates it. It doesn't have the capacity."
The above is true for all live entertainment - casino gambling, attending NHL games, watching plays at theaters, attending concerts, visiting art galleries, attending NFL games, etc.
None of those forms of live entertainment creates lasting material wealth. They're all part of the service sector economy, not the wealth-producing ("manufacturing") economy.
If you want to characterize casino spending as "draining wealth" from Buffalo, then to be consistent you'd also have to characterize Sabres games the same way. Yes, hockey players spend money to reside here, as do casino managers and other employees.
If one wants to argue the Sabres per year draw more out-of-towners to hotels and restaurants than the casino would, that's a different comparison but I'm not sure if it's a true assumption informedone makes. If the full casino was built, it might draw as many people per year from out of town as the Sabres do. For sure it would draw more visitors to Buffalo than the Bandits, Sheas, and Birchfield Penny combined for example, none of which directly create wealth either.
January 5, 2009 1:48 PM
sbrof>"IF it was like the canadian model, where the government owns the Casino's and all revenues were put back into the community, then it would be a different story. That money could go into roads, services and the like."
Couldn't that same argument be made that the Sabres should have to be government-owned?
What's the difference?
January 5, 2009 2:07 PM
not much, with the money that the governments contribute to the sports teams, I feel they should be government (AKA community) owned. That would be great for the moral and stability of the franchises.
The current difference is potential spin off and where the money is spent. The Sabres pay a ton more money out to players and workers than the employees in the casino. Contracts for food and utilities are probably about even. But the Sabres bring in people to Buffalo. The Casino doesn't. The Sabres fill restaurants and bars. The Casino doesn't. This is the main difference. It is demographic difference and if we are going to allow people to spend their life savings, I would like to see more of that money returned to pay for their welfare and public housing when they lose their job and house and beat their wife. (ever read the little plaques in the NF Casinos?)
The money from the Arena has the potential to re-circulate in the local economy. Casino wealth is currently being diverted to either NYS (as a conduit to downstate) or the Seneca nation. Not Buffalo, and barely WNY. Only a pittance is returned to local coffers compared to what is taken out.
January 5, 2009 2:12 PM
Goddmanit Buffalo, build the casino already!!!!!!! The only thing Buffalo has to offer is sports, bars, and cheap rent. Goddamnit get a goddamn casino!
January 5, 2009 2:43 PM
90%of people going to a sabres game or concert event come in from the suburbs...they drive in see the event and then drive home...this is TRUE of all HSBC events...otherwise there would be development around the arena other than 1 bar sprouting up in 9 years... oh, and City Grill was sold because the owner got NO busines as an offshoot of the arena...FYI
January 5, 2009 2:46 PM
Simple, the casino makes money.
January 5, 2009 2:56 PM
Not necessarily the arena's fault but the devil is in the details. We demolished many of immediate blocks around the Arena which means direct spin off was limited to only a couple buildings, which were still used as industrial properties until recently. Now that they have opened up you see several places opening.
City Grill isn't 'connected' enough to the Arena to see the direct benefits. It is on Main Street which means people who drive in for game get to park next to the arena and far away from most restaurants or bars. Also City Grill was WAY to fancy for the Arena crowd. People spending a buck to go to a game don't want a fancy dinner beforehand. They want a Pearl Street or Cobblestone Pub type of atmosphere. Unless they were holding and Opera in the Arena the Clientele isn't in line.
Those people who take the train or park further away from the arena usually would go to places on Chippewa, Delaware TGIF's for food before the game and for the cheaper parking further from the arena. By the time they get on the train they already have eaten.
The Canal Harbor area I feel is going get a lot of spin off business from the arena because for the first time ever.. there are actually going to be places to put restaurants in proximity to both parking and the arena. Park in the ramps, walk through the Canal Terminus District, get food and drinks on the way. It is actually quite a good urban design and will put a lot more people into restaurants than currently are now.
January 5, 2009 3:18 PM
The east side ruins Buffalo
who wants to live near or in that trash?
January 5, 2009 5:03 PM
"Simple, the casino makes money."
Great point, SadLlama. The Sabres lost $9 million last year net (even after receiving salary cap revenue sharing) accoring to Forbes.
So if Sbrof's wish came true and government owned the Sabres, our taxes would need to rise at least $9 million this year to make up that loss.
January 5, 2009 5:39 PM
sbrof>"The Sabres pay a ton more money out to players and workers than the employees in the casino."
Depends on your defintion of "ton more money". The Buffalo casino is projected to have 1,300 employees if ever built. Suppose average pay is $30K/yr. 1300 times 30K is $39M.
Sabres player payroll is $51M. For Lindy, Darcy, and their assistants let's say another $4M, which makes $55M. Their web site lists about 100 in front office, many of which don't look full time. Say $40K times 100, for another $4M. That's $59M paid by Sabres vs $39M by casino.
I wouldn't say a "ton more money". Seems pretty close.
The difference is emotional. Some casino opponents like the Sabres, so they don't want to admit from an economics perspective the casino and Sabres have very similar impact on Buffalo. Most of the Sabres payroll isn't spent in WNY. Much of it goes to Albany for income tax (and even more will go there after the NYS millionaire income tax is raised). A lot of the remainder goes into the players long term investments. By comparison, most of the 1,300 casino employees would spend most of their salary in or near Buffalo.
January 5, 2009 5:43 PM
Sbrof>"money from the Arena has the potential to re-circulate in the local economy. Casino wealth is currently being diverted to either NYS (as a conduit to downstate) or the Seneca nation. Not Buffalo, and barely WNY. Only a pittance is returned to local coffers compared to what is taken out."
Based on that criteria, should Regal Cinemas be govt owned too?
It's an entertainment service, doesn't create lasting wealth, doesn't bring people to Buffalo, its local payroll is very small compared to the Sabres or the casino, and a huge portion of money spent there leaves Buffalo and goes (is "drained", to use Drew's word) away out of town, and only a pittance is returned to local coffers compared to what is taken out. What's the difference?
What kinds of entertainment businesses shouldn't the govt own, and what the difference between those and the kinds you say should be govt owned? Sounds pretty arbitrary. If you say addiction, then should all bars be govt owned?
January 5, 2009 9:06 PM
Just one thing to note:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122852270789884347.html
January 5, 2009 10:05 PM
dayam! thats almost $90,000 a day. i want to own a casino!
seriously tho, have any of you naysayers ever stopped to think that maybe some people enjoy gambling? Last time I checked you had to be a 21 year old adult to enter... let the adults decide what to do with their own money. The social aspect of your argument was lost the day Casino Niagara opened its doors. Problem gamblers will gamble regardless. Don't deny the City of Buffalo its (meager) share of slot revenues that would otherwise go across the border or up the 190.
On the flipside, NYS is stuuuupid for not taking ownership like the Ontario government has.
(this will be the last time i ever respond to a casino thread on this site since i say the same thing every single time)
January 6, 2009 12:50 AM
You know that you can have both the Sabres and the casino which together could spur the developments in the canalside area into a powerful eating and entertainment district that draws people onto itself. Both pro sports and casinos are great drivers if the surrounding community understands the synergies of having both. Maybe one reason why Buffalo and NY State offered such a sweet deal to the Senecas was because they did indeed grasp those synergies and are eager to put them into play. Yes, taken by themselves, pro sports and casinos can drain spendable income with little perceptible benefit, but taken together, with the addition of a Canalside development and with the potential for even more in the Cobblestone area, they can generate many new jobs. Are those jobs preferable to high paying manufacturing jobs? Of course not, but what city in the U.S. is attracting those jobs without huge tax loopholes and giveaways that negate any benefit to their host cities' tax base? At the end of the day, all these activities are loss leaders that either create spinoff jobs or don't. And in this world, a job is a job.
January 6, 2009 12:53 AM
And Buffalick, WTF? Spewing hate about the East Side is retarded and does very little good indeed. There are wonderful treasures in the East Side, both the people there and great old buildings and places that just scream for renewal. If I had a billion dollars, I'd spend it all there.
January 6, 2009 5:56 PM
sonyactivision...if u had a billion and u spent it all there you be a dumbass (and broke) billionaire my friend
January 6, 2009 11:02 PM
Broke? yes, but very satisfed.